Le Forum Catholique

http://www.leforumcatholique.org/message.php?num=753613
images/icones/1i.gif  ( 753613 )Un espion des dissidents des Franciscains de l'Immaculée au FC par New Catholic (2014-06-25 21:11:25) 

OK, je n'attendais pas cela. Bonsoir, Gaudium!

Ils sont partout, les persécuteurs de la Tradition!

Signé,

Le pseudo-crypto-quelque-chose.
images/icones/1e.gif  ( 753629 )Ils sont fous par jejomau (2014-06-25 23:07:42) 
[en réponse à 753613]

ces romains !
images/icones/1b.gif  ( 753631 )Alors, la Tradition c'est un petit village d'Armorique?... par New Catholic (2014-06-25 23:13:03) 
[en réponse à 753629]

...C'est ça? :-)
images/icones/coeurbrise.gif  ( 753651 )le crypto-lefebvrisme résumé par " frangelo" par Presbu (2014-06-26 10:31:44) 
[en réponse à 753613]

échanges très intéressants en anglais sur , un blog qui m'était inconnu. Merci à New Catholic!
je cite "frangelo" (...) june 24 2014: No, I don’t think that the vetus ordo could be in itself a source of harm to the Institute. As I have said here many times before, I learned how to celebrate the old form long before 99% of the friars in the Institute and like the others who appealed had no problem implementing SP. But the kind of problems we are embroiled in now and the sympathies with agendas reaching far beyond anything envisioned by SP were the source of concerns raised by many and disregarded by the former superiors out of hand.
What is really suggested by many who oppose the Commission—I make no inference about you— is that if one really is supportive of SP, that is, if one really loves the traditional liturgy, then one must think like RC, de Mattei, M. Gherardini, The Remnant, Catholic Family News, etc. But that is precisely what we reject
.

Ce qui est réellement suggéré par beaucoup de ceux qui s'opposent à la mise sous commissariat extraordinaire des FR. IMM - je ne prétends pas que vous (Fr Antony) en faites partie - c'est que si quelqu'un est vraiment en faveur de summorum Pontificum, alors il doit penser comme Rorate Caeli, de Mattei, M. Gherardini, The Remnant, Catholic Family News, etc. Mais c'est précisément ce que nous rejetons. Dois-je comprendre que c'est une accusation d'hétérodoxie qui attend d'être formulée prochainement à la S.C. Doctrinae Fidei?
images/icones/coeurbrise.gif  ( 753655 )le traditionnalisme par Fr Angelo Maria GEIGER, le chasseur de crypto-lefebvristes par Presbu (2014-06-26 11:33:46) 
[en réponse à 753651]

Source avec - choix significatif - la gravure d'une église gothique en ruines pour appuyer sa propre offensive contre le traditionnalisme:
Traditionalism Defined
I have given my definition of traditionalism before, but since it is so important, I am devoting a separate post to the matter. “Traditionalism” can mean many things depending on the circumstances.  I am not referring to the heresy condemned by Vatican I.  Nor am I talking about the philosophical trend of thought also known as Perennialism.  Both of these forms of “traditionalism” are anti-modern, not just critical of modernity, but fundamentally opposed to it.  One might argue that the traditionalism that specifically concerns me is also anti-modern and not just anti-Modernist, but I would not suggest that what I am talking about is essentially defined in relation to modernity.
I should also say that “traditional” Catholics are divided as to the use of the term.  Different people define it differently, and, depending on the definition, some willingly apply the term to themselves and others repudiate it.  As has been pointed out here by another before, some think the name “traditionalist” should be dropped altogether insofar as might be applied to Catholics.  I will not dispute that the use of the term risks misunderstanding.  I will not even claim of having any definitive response as to whether its use ought to be continued in the long run.  But I do believe the present status quaestionis makes the distinction necessary.
By traditionalism, then, I mean that ideology by which Catholics, in the name of conserving Tradition, take it upon themselves to determine what magisterial act does and does not belong to Catholic Tradition.  By calling traditionalism an “ideology” I mean to indicate that it consists of integrated assertions—in the line of contingent opinions—that come together to form an airtight and complete theory for the reconstruction of Catholic life according to the Tradition of the Church.  I argue that this ideology pretends to solve contingent problems by submitting the living magisterium to a scientific analysis and then insists that the magisterium, including the Holy Father, either prove the analysis wrong or conform to it.
It is very important to make clear that my position in no way implies a denial of the real distinction between fallible and infallible magisterial teaching, nor should it be thought to render pointless honest academic inquiry into the formulation of magisterial teachings and their historical context, thus helping to determine more accurately their relative value as part of the received Tradition.  My point in respect to what I consider traditionalism is that at this moment, in the context of current controversies, it represents an obstinate prejudice against an ecumenical council and fifty years of papal teaching.  According to this rupturist interpretation, the Council was not misrepresented and abused by those who have no regard for Tradition; Tradition was misrepresented and abused by the Council itself.  My insistence on the use of the term “traditionalism”—at least for now—is due to the fact that the current of thought here described is real and distinct, and not clearly acknowledged by a great many “traditional” Catholics.  This problem is not a matter reserved to the SSPX and more radical traditionalists and sedevacantists, but includes many who would not consider themselves traditionalists and who believe that they are perfectly faithful to the teaching of Benedict XVI.
I should also point out that my definition implies nothing directly about liturgical preferences.  A preference for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass does not by my definition make one a traditionalist, nor would a preference for the Ordinary Form in itself absolve one from the charge, since my definition formally has only to do with the relationship of the magisterium to Tradition.  It just so happens that the liturgical tradition is at the center of most disputes regarding the living magisterium’s fidelity to Tradition, and, therefore, the Extraordinary Form has become a kind of banner for a certain kind for crusade for the restoration of Tradition.  I have, in fact, met Catholics who, although they prefer the English Mass, have many questions as to whether the Church has been faithful to Tradition, and sometimes even subscribe to the same conspiracy theories promulgated by those sympathetic with the Society of St. Pius X.
images/icones/neutre.gif  ( 753660 )En plus, il est un des 5 (CINQ !) dissidents ultra-libéraux... par New Catholic (2014-06-26 12:17:08) 
[en réponse à 753655]

...qui ont été à la racine de cette hécatombe:

I am one of the original five friars who appealed to the Holy See concerning the problems within our Institute. I mention this in the interests of full disclosure.


Il a été obligé de l'admettre ici - c'est le libelle à l'origine de l'intervention, il me semble.

Dans le cas de la FSSP, ils étaient 16 parmi un nombre total beaucoup plus faible, dans les FFI ils étaient 5, parmi presque 400 au total...

Et maintenant il lit le FC aussi, dommage: peut-être dans quelques jours une intervention de la Congrégation pour les Réligieux arrivera aussi ici... Cocou, Père G.!...
images/icones/vatican.gif  ( 754515 )Fournir des arguments tradis tant aux ED qu'aux lefebvriens = favoriser l'hérésie? par Presbu (2014-07-08 22:00:18) 
[en réponse à 753651]

J'ai essayé de dépouiller avec soin l'interminable blog de Fr Angelo Maria GEIGER pour en extraire le meilleur de ses arguments en réponse à ses nombreux et solides contradicteurs:
1) "c'est le Pape François qui a tout décidé" (aussi bien la mise sous commissariat que l'interdiction aux FI de célébrer le VO, sauf autorisation exceptionnelle de leur commissaire et de son adjoint). ce qui appelle quelques remarques de procédure canonique: 1a) Existe-t-il un document précis au moins contresigné par le pape à ce sujet, ou bien devons-nous nous satisfaire des simples affirmations du card BRAZ DE AVIS? Pour ma part, je serais enclin à croire qu'il n'y a eu qu'un accord verbal et secret l'été dernier, juste assez pour supprimer toute possibilité d'appel comme d'examen respectueux des motivations de fait et de droit. 1b) Les anciens responsables des FI ont été convoqués, chapitrés et punis dans le même movement, sans avoir le bénéfice ni d'un délai de réflexion et de sursis , ni d'un procès équitable... (cela est réservé aux religieuses américaines AMWR)
--> à suivre, vu le temps qui me manque